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Serious Coilover Comparison Questions

RSMark5

Go Kart Champion
Okay, so I've been thinking about this a while. Talked about it with friends, but I figured I'd open up this debate for the public.

Serious question for you guys. What is really the difference between a set of racelands and a set of H&R streets or KW V1s? Sure the construction is a little better (better welds probably higher grade metals), corrosion protection is a little better, and there is more R&D into the spring rate's and valving. But, what really are the major advantages that justify H&R's Streets or KW V1's being 4 times as much as a set of racelands?

By comparision of the H&Rs & KW's to other coilovers such as the B&G's and K-sports, why is is that they are ~$200 less than the big names but can offer adjustable strut/shock bodies, endlinks, linear springs, custom top mounts, pillow mounts, 20+ way adjustable dampening etc...

I know KW and H&R are among the leaders in current aftermarket suspension technology and I'm not trying to take anything away from that, or change anyone's mind, or bash a product These are just 4 products at a similar price point with totally different mentalities. I realize comparing H&R Streets to K sports are apples and oranges, but the only apples to apples to compare them to are more than half the price. I am seriously asking since its hard to wade through all the marketing hooplah and I'd like to return to coilovers on my next car. How about some hardcore facts?
 

zee

Go Kart Champion
I'll take a bite at this.

Marketing
Marketing from their actual professional racing kits get people onboard to view them as a “premioum” brand even though most of their street geared kits might not actually have much in common.

Reputation
I personally think because the major brand names have good reputations that they have built over the years, people get wow'd by the brand name and not look more deeply into the features offered by each kit today.
I can't justify the price difference btw ST and KW V1, but their reputation are thesame becasue they are both made by KW. The KW V3 to me is the only true KW prestige kit.



Warranty
Warranty support is pretty identical as almost all the companies require the kits to be removed from the car and shipped back for inspection before a warranty replacement is sent which could take months.
The lifetime warranty is also not worth it as wear and tear is not covered, and after 5 yrs most owners will probably have sold the car or close to being sold. Shocks will probably need a rebuild after 5 years and it won’t be covered under warranty, so I do not personally get why the KW V1 costs much more than the ST.
I usually prefer warranty that allows me to deal with my seller or installer rather than directly with the brand.

Corrosion protection
Most of the brands above advertise their kits as stainless steel when they are not 100% stainless.
Comparing $700 ST suspension to $1100 KW V1, the galvanized steel vs stainless Steel fronts does not justify the extra $400.
The height only adjustable brand name coilovers are a huge disappointment for what they offer and are not even on my radar these days.

Koni is chrome plated
KW V1 & V2 are INOX Stainless Steel fronts, rears are powder coated.
KW V3 is full INOX Stainless Steel
ST is galvanized steel, rears are powder coated.
H&R (Premium and Ultra-low) is Stainless Steel fronts only, rears are powdercoated.
FK is Stainless Steel fronts only, rears are powdercoated.(at least I think so for most of the coils they have. Not sure about the Silverline X)
B&G is powder coated
K-sport is Teflon coated
V-maxx ??
Bilstein ??

Higher grade metals on perch & shocks
There are two categories here, cheep and quality. Raceland and cheaper eBay coilovers seem to be sub-par as owners have complained.. V-maxx used to be cheap but they have stepped up their act and in my books are classified alongside the other “premium” brands here.

Features
This is how I personally shop. Best bang of features for my money.
All in adjustability, top mounts, end-links etc.
 

EuroStylez

Go Kart Champion
Nice! This needs to stick somewhere so that all of the newbies read it before starting another "which coils" thread!

Great write up!
 

Aigoo

Ready to race!
Disclaimer: Everything below is entirely my opinion :D

IMO you'd be hard pressed to find more features for the money than with ksport kontrol pros. Something like 32 way adjustable shocks and that strut housing height adjustability that doesn't dick with the preload, for 800 bucks on ebay? My Teins on my lexus had those features for 1400+ lol. Reading reviews the Ksports are definitely stiffer than stock; possibly right at the limit of what some people may consider streetable. I can't say for sure since i have no personal experience. Kicker was the one year warranty? Can't feel comfortable with that. There's a possibility they may never break, but who knows!

I personally chose ST because they're basically kw v1's for way cheaper. Not as many features, but for someone who just wants to lower their car with amazing ride quality, then I can wholeheartedly recommend ST's. Stiffer than stock, extremely comfortable as a daily, but may not be stiff enough for extended duty track use. 5 year warranty seems perfect since who knows what i'll do after i pay off my car.

I think FK streetlines aren't stainless. Might be an issue depending on where you live.

tl;dr: ST's awesome for daily driver/spirited driving, backed by a known company, and they're cheap! Ksports have tons of features but reliability unknown to me at least so one year warranty might not cut it.
 
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Ben1

Go Kart Champion
I'm wholeheartedly going to agree with bubuski's thoughts and Aigoo's review. KWs are the way to go and because ST is their in-house "California" brand of KW V1s it's such an easy quality choice. We're restocking on STs for many of the same reasons :).
 

zee

Go Kart Champion
So throwing in some more devils advocate :D

If we agree that STs are KW V1 without the premium...
  • ST's are $700 retail so probably worth more like $550 before the price hike?
  • ST's are built in Germany, so if we remove the "made in Germany" labour cost, maybe it is worth more like $400(or less) if built in an identical quality factory with cheaper labour in China/Taiwan/Korea.
  • ST's are pretty much KW V1s. So are KW V1 worth $400 without the premium KW name? Just like a few coilovers which are good but without a brand name and are built in Taiwan.
  • If I can chop the price down of KW V1's, does that also mean the the other KW coils (V2 & V3) are possibly too over priced compared to the competitors?:yikes:

Discuss ;)
 

Aigoo

Ready to race!
Kinda how iphone 4 teardowns estimate total build cost to be less than 200, but they sell for 600 sans contract.

Gotta feed the children!

I'm pretty sure most name brands carry some sort of price premium.


So throwing in some more devils advocate :D

If we agree that STs are KW V1 without the premium...
  • ST's are $700 retail so probably worth more like $550 before the price hike?
  • ST's are built in Germany, so if we remove the "made in Germany" labour cost, maybe it is worth more like $400(or less) if built in an identical quality factory with cheaper labour in China/Taiwan/Korea.
  • ST's are pretty much KW V1s. So are KW V1 worth $400 without the premium KW name? Just like a few coilovers which are good but without a brand name and are built in Taiwan.
  • If I can chop the price down of KW V1's, does that also mean the the other KW coils (V2 & V3) are possibly too over priced compared to the competitors?:yikes:

Discuss ;)
 

RSMark5

Go Kart Champion
Okay so again I just want to make it clear, I'm not knocking KW ST H&R or any specific coilover. I'm making an inquiry about where the price difference really comes in between a $300 set of Racelands and a $1425 set of KW V1s


Lets use 2 examples though to see the difference. The first comparision is based on price, and I used KW and Bilstein to compare because both are German, both have similar technology, equally extensive R&D departments..etc.

KW V1's (selected 1 forum sponser who had both products for a control) $1425
Height adjustable
Stainless steel
????/
Lifetime warranty
TUV approved

Bilstein PSS10 $1325
Height adjustable
Stainless steel
Internal bumpstops
Gas filled monotube dampers
10 way dampening adjustable (on car)
Lifetime warranty
TUV Approved

The KW's are tuned for the street, and thats all they'll ever be tuned for. The PSS's however can go from one of the most comfortable street coils (along side KWs) to hardcore track monsters in a few seconds. Bilstien and KW are both among the leaders in aftermarket suspension technology. So again why are KW's $100 more?


Now lets compare Apples to Oranges from the same 2 companies based on features.

KW V3's $2150
Damping technology with individually adjustable rebound- and compression technology
Inox-line stainless steel technology
Individually height adjustable
Adjustment parameters approved by the German Technical Control Board (TÜV)

Infinitely variable rebound damping adjustment
14-way adjustable compression damping
Unique, individually working damping force adjustment


Bilstein PSS10 $1325
Height adjustable
Stainless steel
Internal bumpstops
Gas filled monotube dampers
10 way dampening adjustable (on car)
Lifetime warranty
TUV Approved

It seems (to me at least) that these would be more comperable. They are both (nearly) each brands top of the line coils, both are leaders, they have similar technology, similar construction, similar features. Why is there a $800 price difference?


I'd really like to get into more hardcore numbers. Ideally, it would be nice to have 10 Identical MK6's with various coilovers to test on a track day to compare numbers. However, I highly doubt that will ever happen. I of course want to leave things like Ride Quality of the comparison because thats completely subjective.

Discuss.
 

DRedman451

Go Kart Champion
^^little typo for the pss9s up there

personally my only reason for going with my koni's over k sports was the warranty...i still think ksports are the best bang for you buck imo

anything over 1100 is not worth it as a daily to me...i didn't even consider kw or bilstein because i know they are overpriced and they don't even have great dampening/height adjustment...the only thing i like about bilstein is they are gas and have the internal bumpstops
 

RSMark5

Go Kart Champion
Price won't be a huge factor on my next coilover purchase. Value however is my top priority and my focus of this thread.

I've owned/installed/driven/ridden on countless brands and styles of coils. I intend to spend well over the $1,000 on tier 1 coilovers, but only if its good value for money. IMO KW's features don't start coming into their own until you get V3's or Clubsports which far exceed the $2,000 mark. However, theres several coils at that price point who meet and exceed the features of the KW's. :iono: So what are the best bang for the buck top tier coilovers?

And for users who aren't concerned with hardcore coils, and want a middle of the road street/occasional track use coilover, how can you be so sure you're getting your money's worth? With so many choices, and so little information posted by the manufactures (trade secrets) how are we, the consumers, supposed to know this info and make an informed decision?

Lastly, and hypothetically, if the marketplace is supposed to be all about supply and demand, why isn't anyone spending some R&D money on making a set of coils that ride VERY low with out sacrificing ride quality? The low/stance thing has taken off like a wildfire the past 12 months. There are countless stance blogs across the internet. Why aren't any manufactures taking notice and building a product specifically for these people? There are coils like this for JDM cars, why not euro? (yes I know 1552 is trying to do this)

/Questions

TL;DR Main points are underlined.
 

MasterKevin

Ready to race!
Pss10s hands down :D
 

RSMark5

Go Kart Champion
So I'm going to start putting some hardcore info in here. Rather than using specific examples to say X is better than Y, lets focus on the main features of a set of coilovers. Hopefully this will help to lead to a more informed purchase.

What is a coilover?
Coilover is short for coil spring over strut. It consists of a damper with a coil spring encircling it. A coilover shock with springs mounted functions as a unit that provides both springing and damping. One end of the shock has a fixed, integrated spring seat and is mounted to the axle or suspension. The other end, which incorporates an adjustable upper spring seat, is mounted to the chassis. The term coilover is now most commonly used to describe an aftermarket assembly that at least has a threaded strut/shock body for height adjustment. However, there are many more options than that.

What are all these pieces?

There are only a few major components of a coilover strut assembly. The structure starts with a damper with a threaded body (strut in our case). First a locking collar is threaded onto the strut followed by the spring perch. The strut assembly fits through the spring. It is secured at the top by the strut mount. These are sometimes referred to as "top hats" because of their shape. The strut mount usually consists of a bearing, a bushing, and a rubber/metal mount which bolts it into the strut/shock tower of the car (aka chassis)

Sometimes there are 2 springs on the coilover assembly. The large spring is actual main spring, where as the smaller spring at bottom of the assembly is known as a helper spring. Helper springs assist with rebound stability, ride comfort and keep the main coil spring seated. Preload of the main spring can also be set to zero, for maximum comfort and suspension travel These are often found on higher quality coilovers. In our case FK's are the most common to utilize the helper spring design.

Some coilovers also come with adjustable strut/shock body length (pictured below). In this type, the lower main body of the coilover can be spun up and down to change ride height with out effecting the spring rate and preload. It essentially changes the length of the assembly with out effecting the length of travel of both the spring and strut rod. This is different than struts which have a fixed threaded body that the spring is raised and lowered on. In that case, adjusting the perch up and down will change spring rate (on a progressive spring), spring pre-load, and rod travel. These can found for the MK6 with JIC/Cross K-sport, B&G, BC racing (if they're still around)



What is a damper?
A damper is a structural component designed to resist compression. As a vehicle is driven over varying conditions, it has a tendency to bounce and hop depending on the roughness and/or bumpiness of a given road surface. Struts apply various degrees of tension to the front and rear of a vehicle that limit road bounce and bumpiness.

Well what makes one damper better than another?

Monotube Dampers vs Twin Tube dampers?

How does a Twin Tube damper work?

Bump stroke.
When the piston rod is pushed in, oil flows without resistance from below the piston through the outlets, and the non-return valve to the area above the piston. Simultaneously, a quantity of oil is displaced by the volume of the rod entering the cylinder. This volume of oil is forced to flow through the bottom valve into the reservoir tube filled with air (1 bar) or nitrogen gas (4-8 bar). The resistance, encountered by the oil on passing through the footvalve, generates the bump damping.

Rebound stroke.

When the piston rod is pulled out, the oil above the piston is pressurized and forced to flow through the piston. The resistance, encountered by the oil on passing through the piston, generates the rebound damping. Simultaneously, some oil flows back, without resistance, from the reservoir tube , through the footvalve to the lower part of the cylinder to compensate for the volume of the piston rod emerging from the cylinder.

How does a monotube work?
Unlike the twin-tube damper, the mono-tube shock has no reservoir tube. There is still a need to store the oil that is displaced by the rod when entering the cylinder. This is achieved by making the oil capacity of the cylinder adaptable. Therefore the cylinder is not completely filled with oil; the lower part contains (nitrogen) gas under 20-30 bar. Gas and oil are separated by the floating piston .

When the piston rod is pushed in, the floating piston is also forced down by the displacement of the piston rod, thus slightly increasing pressure in both gas and oil section. Also, the oil below the piston is forced to flow through the piston. The resistance encountered in this manner generates the bump damping.

Rebound stroke.

When the piston rod is pulled out, the oil between piston and guide is forced to flow through the piston. The resistance encountered in this manner generates the rebound damping. At the same time, part of the piston rod will emerge from the cylinder and the free (floating) piston will move upwards.

Here is a picture to help make sense of all that tech


Advantages/Disadvantages of each?

A quality twin-tube will offer low friction, resistance to cavitation, and large valve area . This is everything a good damper should be, and the value of a dual-valve twin-tube damper seems to be much higher than the monotube solutions I see on the market. I'm not sure why this is, but it makes them a pretty unbeatable value for most uses.A twin-tube damper has very little piston valve area, this is a size limitation said to be inherent in a twin-tube design. The inner tube simply isn't as big as the outer tube.Twin tube dampers are the most commonly used type of dampers by OEM and aftermarket manufacture as they are the cheapest damper to make. However, twin tube dampers do not perform as well as mono tube dampers as the oil heats up and destabilises under extreme usage.

A monotube dampers contain the piston and rod within one large-diameter tube. A floating piston at the bottom of the damper provides a physical barrier between the damper's oil and the high-pressure nitrogen gas needed for shaft displacement. Monotube dampers run pressures upwards of 300 psi. This high internal pressure inside the gas chamber means the damper oil is less likely to bubble, or cavitate, as it travels through the valves at high speeds.The drawbacks of a monotube aren't as easy to find information on, and they seem to stem from monotubes requiring high gas pressure internally. This makes the damper act somewhat as a spring, always wanting to extend, and the larger seal area (necessitated by the large piston) can generate quite a bit more static friction within the damper. Static friction is very bad as it prevents suspension movement from happening- we want to dampen the motion, not prevent it.

What is dampening adjustable, and why whould I want it?

Adjusting the damping means you are changing the way the damper behaves in either rebound or compression (or both). Increasing the damping in either dimension (rebound or compression) means that you are increasing how resistant the damper will be movement in that dimension.
eg. Increasing rebound damping means that the spring will require more force to push the piston back up in the shock body, meaning that the entire assembly will return to its regular length more slowly. Decreasing the rebound damping means it takes less force to return the entire assembly to its regular length so it will extend more quickly. Compression damping works the same way, in the opposite direction (compression of the damper). Increasing compression damping means it will require more force to compress the damper, and decreasing compression damping means it will require less force. How this translates into ride quality (stiffness, or bounciness) depends on a variety of other factors, as well as how rebound and compression are adjusted in relation to one another. Generally of course, more damping will mean a stiffer ride.


Having adjustable dampening can be good if you alter your wheel/tire combo and ride height pretty consistently. Droping unsprung weight by getting smaller/lighter wheel and tire combo will change the characteristics of of the dampening. Being able to set it softer, or harder is a big advantage to some one who's car does double duty on the street and track with dedicated track wheels.


However, many times if you don't change out wheels, and you have no intentions of taking your car to the track, then adjustable dampening may not be the thing for you. A set of coils such a KW V1's or H&R streets come properly valved for street applications and your average wheel and tire spec. Often times buyers of dampening adjustable coilovers claim that once they set them up to their taste, they never changed those settings again. However, whether or not this personalization of ride/performance is not for your average user.


Piston Rod
The advantages of a larger piston rod in the strut is still relatively unknown to me. I know that rod is there to withstand linear forces, and the larger the rod the great the force the strut is capable of handling. Is this noticable from a drivers standpoint? I honestly don't know. Does a larger piston rod = a better coilover? Again, I'm not knowledgeable enough to say. Hopefully some one will jump in


Springs

What is the function of a spring on a car?
The main function of a spring is to keep the tires on the road. As the road surface deviates, the spring keeps linear pressure on the wheel so that it stays in contact with the road.

Types of springs
There are 2 types of coil springs, progressive and linear. Linear springs have a fixed spring rate. This means the amount of weight needed to compress the spring a certain amount does not change with the load. Its very easy to spot a linear spring. Linear springs have equal spaced coils within the spring. (K-sports B&GS JIC)

The second type of springs is by far the most common. Progressive springs have variable spring rates. A progressive spring is one in which the spring rate changes depending on the amount of load placed on the spring, therefore the actual spring rate is not a fixed number. These are easily spotted because there is not equal spaces between the coils of the spring. There will be a few coils at the top and bottom of the spring basically on top of each other while the center coils are very wide apart.


Why does this matter? Do they handle different?

Yes!

Linear springs
The main advantage of linear springs is consistency. The way that the weight transfer from one side of the car to the other side should be very smooth and consistent. This makes the car’s dynamics much easier to predict. When exiting a corner, a linear spring will settle the car’s body in a smooth manner because both sides of the car are compressing and rebounding at the same rate (1 mm of compression to 1 mm of rebound).

Progressive springs
When exiting a corner, a progressive spring will send the compressed force from outside of the car to the inside. Since the spring rate is not constant from side to side, the spring on the inside of the car will compress from the force absorbed. It will then send the compressed force back to the outside. This happens back and forth as the car slowly settles down. This excessive body roll requires more attention to control effectively.



The progressive spring is blue, linear spring is red.



This is by no means comprehensive. It is my intentions that other users who are more informed than me will be able to fill in any information I missed. If there are any corrections needed post them up. If I'm wrong, don't be afraid to tell me.

Hope this can be helpful :thumbsup:


External Resources
http://www.iwsti.com/forums/gd-suspension-handling-stiffening/60084-damper-design-twin-tube-versus-monotube.html
http://www.tirerack.com/suspension/brand.jsp?brand=KONI&tab=choosing
http://www.meisterr.com/Site/Suspension_Basics.html
http://www.modified.com/tech/0605_sccp_making_it_stick_part_5/dampers.html
 
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zee

Go Kart Champion
:iono:

RSMark was sandbagging:fighting0030:. I was going to try to answer your questions with my personal information today but didn't expect you to drop the nukes last night.

Awesome post. :clap:
 
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