Unitronic Stage 2+(K04) Impressions

[allset]

what arin is saying is right. timing pull -3 to 0 is spec, and pull doesnt = knock. pull can happen for several reasons. pull is a "safety" method. knock is predetonation. pull can be in response to knock. Pull is needed in certain situation. anything greater than -3 or -4 is not good.

that being said i saw pull of -15 and worse at times when misfireing under load

 

[stockton2007]

Thanks, Arin. I figured it wasn't an answerable question without extensive logging and testing.

I appreciate the detailed response.

Honestly, I have no idea. You could see some, or you could see none. It really depends on the quality of gasoline, engine health, modifications, altitude, humidity, and many other operating variables. There is no 1 correct answer, nor should there be. The ECU is extremely dynamic.



Very good question. Unfortunately I don't know the answer, because I've never tested water meth with our own calibrations. I do not know what the results will be. The IAT sensor will see lower temperatures and adjust compensations based on those lower temps. With APR ECU Explorer, I could log all of the ignition related maps and calculations in the ECU and get a better idea of what's actually happening. However, vag-com does not relay information other than the final output, and the per cylinder correction factors.

I have seen customers attempting to run our 100 octane calibrations with w/m and sometimes the meth is not setup correctly. In doing so, the ECU pulls quite a bit of timing, and jumps to lower ignition maps as the adaption to register more ignition pull. This could result in lower ignition than actually running on the 93 octane map all together!

Between two different calibrations, if everything is the same, each should be able to achieve the same amount of ignition advance. Running more boost will likely mean our base ignition maps were calibrated lower than someone running less boost as the cylinder pressures are higher. However, that said, the difference should not be tremendous.

Knock control can be adjusted from the factory. The sensitivity can be turned down. This is something we do not do, but it can explain the differences between two different calibrations, all thing equal. We will not do this on our calibrations, and I'm not stating another tuner has.

Keep in mind, timing pull does not mean the engine is physically knocking. Timing pull is normal. If you don't have any timing pull, it means you likely still have more headroom on the table to increase ignition further.

 

[allset]

Anyone care to do my logs for me....I am an excel IDIOT

I HATE excel, but forced to use it for work from time to time. I usually make someone else handle any advanced excel work.

 

[grambles423]

I can do them

 

[chrisisnapping]

Between two different calibrations, if everything is the same, each should be able to achieve the same amount of ignition advance. Running more boost will likely mean our base ignition maps were calibrated lower than someone running less boost as the cylinder pressures are higher. However, that said, the difference should not be tremendous.

(i know sometimes my posts can come off as...well an asshole when i quote you. just want to clarify that it's not ALWAYS the intention, i'm mostly just trying to learn, one way i do that is by asking questions, sometimes my probing can come off as accusatory)

With that said, with colder air the ECU needs less boost to meet it's targets, right? So let's say APR's tune calls for 20psi of boost normally, however it's nice and cold out so the ECU says "hey we only need 18psi" would that show as specified boost, or just actual boost in logs? I ask, because if it was say 10-15 degrees colder when the APR logs were done could this also skew the boost difference between APR and UNI, as in could that difference have been greater if OP also ran logs with APR at similar temperatures?


for educational purposes - I'm APR Stage 2 with meth. If you wanted to really see the effects meth would have on a tune. What types of logs would you want to see ran for comparisons. I know timing/IATs would be a given, but anything else that would be pretty important to note?

 

[A_Bowers]

I can do them

Z I sent them to your gmail acct.


For the rest, I was only able to capture N75, boost actual and specified today.

Tomorrow will have timing advance and retard, Lambda, and MAF

 

[John@Unitronic]

I’ve taken the time to also graph Matt’s (mdhollis) logs. I used the XY Scatter Plot as suggested.

Here is the data range used.

And here are the two logs that the data ranges were pulled from (highlighted in yellow). I tried to match the data series as close as possible.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ku803i7bif871k4/eMk0Jq-cOm

The calibration can be setup to advance more when the sensor sees colder IAT's, but our calibration's not setup to aggressively add ignition based on IAT because we don't know if it's cold weather, or water/meth. I rather take the safe side on that.

By the way, we don’t increase timing advance based on IAT’s, either.

 

[mdhollis]

I’ve taken the time to also graph Matt’s (mdhollis) logs. I used the XY Scatter Plot as suggested.

Here is the data range used.

And here are the two logs that the data ranges were pulled from (highlighted in yellow). I tried to match the data series as close as possible.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ku803i7bif871k4/eMk0Jq-cOm



By the way, we don’t increase timing advance based on IAT’s, either.

Thanks John!!

 

[mdhollis]

(i know sometimes my posts can come off as...well an asshole when i quote you. just want to clarify that it's not ALWAYS the intention, i'm mostly just trying to learn, one way i do that is by asking questions, sometimes my probing can come off as accusatory)

With that said, the logs Op posted for APR were taken a few months back, so the weather was colder than it has been the past week or so in our area. Now with colder air the ECU needs less boost to meet it's targets, right? So let's say APR's tune calls for 20psi of boost normally, however it's nice and cold out so the ECU says "hey we only need 18psi" would that show as specified boost, or just actual boost in logs? I ask, because if it was say 15-20 degrees colder when the APR logs were done (not sure what month they were done in) could this also skew the boost difference between APR and UNI, as in could that difference have been greater if OP also ran logs with APR at similar temperatures?


for educational purposes - I'm APR Stage 2 with meth. If you wanted to really see the effects meth would have on a tune. What types of logs would you want to see ran for comparisons. I know timing/IATs would be a given, but anything else that would be pretty important to note?

APR logs were done in the beginning of March, UNI logs done at the end of March. With my meth system I am at or below ambient from what I can see. APR logs I would say it was 10-15 degrees colder. Also a fyi, I live in a heavily populated area, all my logs are done in the middle of night. It was cold for both of them.

 

[chrisisnapping]

APR logs were done in the beginning of March, UNI logs done at the end of March. With my meth system I am at or below ambient from what I can see. APR logs I would say it was 10-15 degrees colder. Also a fyi, I live in a heavily populated area, all my logs are done in the middle of night. It was cold for both of them.

ah i see....thought the APR logs were from January or February and Uni was done in the last week or two. my bad

 

[mdhollis]

ah i see....thought the APR logs were from January or February and Uni was done in the last week or two. my bad

It's all good. I just don't want to be accused of giving false info and spun around by anyone. Trying to put everything on the table

 

[Bronson@APR]

I like the data :thumbsup:

I would say it's a fair and informative comparison, it's just 2 different philosphies for calibrating this particular engine.

 

[mdhollis]

I like the data :thumbsup:

I would say it's a fair and informative comparison, it's just 2 different philosphies for calibrating this particular engine.

Thank you Bronson I appreciate that.

 

[chrisisnapping]

It's all good. I just don't want to be accused of giving false info and spun around by anyone. Trying to put everything on the table

i edited the post just enough to still make the question valid, but without fudging information too much

 

[Bronson@APR]

Thank you Bronson I appreciate that.

If the data was presented this way from the get go, you wouldn't of heard a peep from me.

It's a matter of boost vs timing, those that see this and understand the data will get what they need out of it. When running 2500mbar of pressure, you're going to run into limitations advancing timing as opposed to 2300 mbar of pressure. You have a chamber with a fixed size, if you have more air in it, you'll have more pressure and it will give less lead-way with ignition. The purpose is to produce as much torque as possible per every power stroke, there are multiple combinations of air/fuel/timing that will achieve it.

There is more than 1 way to skin a cat (terrible analogy but the only thing that popped into my head).