Water Pump Question

[necro1234]

That's the one, I commented on it at the time and never was notified he responded. Either way, I'm not a fan of machining a part like a water pump when we have other options like leaving the sensor out.

Agreed that's also more versatile if for some reason we ever shove a CBFA water pump back in for whatever reason.

I'm hopeful this works out as expected keeping the keep it simple stupid principal

 

[Allchokedup]

I bought graf waterpump from ECS and it has the sensor on it. I am ko4 and havent seen any issues over the past year or so since i installed. (2011 gti,)
I was shipped the incorrect thermostat with the pump. Got it all installed and was having issues with over heating. Pulled it off diagnosed and sent ECS pics like WTF?? They sent new thermostat and no issues since.
Son has a 2010 A4 we put the same pump on, no issues and it's been a year.
Dont know if this is helpful but thought I would chime in.

 

[torga]

Something else I plan to test when I do my waterpump is to see if the stock lower plastic inlet (with sensor) will bolt up to the aluminum housing/pump. I'm not sure if this has already been tested but if it does fit, there should be no limitations for owners of early CBFAs wanting to use the aluminum pump.

I'd be very cautious with this. Plastic's coefficient of thermal expansion (CTE) is 3-4 times higher than aluminum's (I used the CTE for ABS, but any plastic will have a higher CTE than aluminum). This mismatch could cause that joint to open up to leaks, even if it fits perfectly when cold.

I bought graf waterpump from ECS and it has the sensor on it. I am ko4 and havent seen any issues over the past year or so since i installed. (2011 gti,)
I was shipped the incorrect thermostat with the pump. Got it all installed and was having issues with over heating. Pulled it off diagnosed and sent ECS pics like WTF?? They sent new thermostat and no issues since.
Son has a 2010 A4 we put the same pump on, no issues and it's been a year.
Dont know if this is helpful but thought I would chime in.

I got a Graf too and the included thermostat, temp sensor all all o-rings were absolute garbage. I don't know how it's possible for an o-ring to look like you got it from Dollar General, but those are the ones they used. I bought all OEM seals and a brand new OEM themostat, reused my temp sensor. It's been absolutely perfect since first fire-up.

 

[Grabbit]

So an update of sorts. I got the chance to compare the two pumps side by side. I ordered an aluminum one from Amazon that did not have the sensor for early CBFAs. Its great quality, better than the Graf pump judging by the pictures. The seals and senor on it fit nice and if I had a CCTA or later CBFA without the sensor on the thermostat I would run it in a heartbeat over any OEM pump. The Graf one doesn't have the side tabs on the inlet and outlet to lock the coolant hoses in and keep them from rotating. This one did. Also came with quality gaskets, o-rings, union, sensor and thermostat. It has a metal pump on the outside but opening it up, the impeller was plastic (but so is OEM one). Build quality felt good. I chose not to install this pump and returned it instead; which I'll detail below, so I cannot speak to actual fitment.

The second pump I got was an OEM VW pump that includes the sensor on the thermostat. I took both apart and noticed immediately the thermostat design is completely different. So are the internals of the pump housing between the two even if you ignore the fact they are made from different materials. I was really hoping they would be the same but in all honestly I'm glad they aren't. Here is why..... the more I thought about it, I figured out there were three possible outcomes....

1.) Install aluminum pump without sensor and rig up the OEM sensor from the original pump that is on my car now and hope it fools the ECU to prevent throwing any codes. If it doesn't then great but if it does, I would have to swap back to the OEM pump and then try and sell a used pump or eat the cost of it.
2.) Install the OEM thermostat with sensor and lower plastic piece into the Aluminum pump and hope the material difference wasn't enough to cause any leaks. Ultimately this wont work as I described above. I also have reservations about installing the original thermostat and lower housing with 115k onto a brand new aluminum pump. Jacking the thermostat from the brand new OEM pump I have doesn't make much sense either because I would be essentially paying for two different pumps to make one that may work.
3.) Install a replacement OEM pump and be done with it. Bingo...... We have a winner. This is what I chose. Here is why..... The early CBFA was not part of the waterpump recall. I checked my VIN several times and it has never qualified. Why that is I don't know but someone smarter than me knows why. I've also owned my GTI since 28k miles and as the second owner with just over 116k on it now, I can confidently say I've never had any leaking or issues with the pump. Also pretty sure it has never been replaced before I got it. I decided to replace the pump purely because I've neglected the cooling system and I've never got it flushed plus I'm planning a huge maintenance event where I'll be dropping the trans for a LSD install with new clutch packs and DMF. I also plan to do a K04 upgrade and a carbon clean all at the same time so it will be easy to replace. I seem to go down these rabbit holes of replacing parts when I get things torn apart. I did the timing chain tensioner update at 85k myself and wound up doing all tensioners, guides, chains, rails and even the latest revision of the camshaft bridge and a new PCV valve. I plan on keeping the car for another 3-5 years at least and bank some dough for an RS3. I hope this helps anyone in the same position

 

[Allchokedup]

So an update of sorts. I got the chance to compare the two pumps side by side. I ordered an aluminum one from Amazon that did not have the sensor for early CBFAs. Its great quality, better than the Graf pump judging by the pictures. The seals and senor on it fit nice and if I had a CCTA or later CBFA without the sensor on the thermostat I would run it in a heartbeat over any OEM pump. The Graf one doesn't have the side tabs on the inlet and outlet to lock the coolant hoses in and keep them from rotating. This one did. Also came with quality gaskets, o-rings, union, sensor and thermostat. It has a metal pump on the outside but opening it up, the impeller was plastic (but so is OEM one). Build quality felt good. I chose not to install this pump and returned it instead; which I'll detail below, so I cannot speak to actual fitment.

The second pump I got was an OEM VW pump that includes the sensor on the thermostat. I took both apart and noticed immediately the thermostat design is completely different. So are the internals of the pump housing between the two even if you ignore the fact they are made from different materials. I was really hoping they would be the same but in all honestly I'm glad they aren't. Here is why..... the more I thought about it, I figured out there were three possible outcomes....

1.) Install aluminum pump without sensor and rig up the OEM sensor from the original pump that is on my car now and hope it fools the ECU to prevent throwing any codes. If it doesn't then great but if it does, I would have to swap back to the OEM pump and then try and sell a used pump or eat the cost of it.
2.) Install the OEM thermostat with sensor and lower plastic piece into the Aluminum pump and hope the material difference wasn't enough to cause any leaks. Ultimately this wont work as I described above. I also have reservations about installing the original thermostat and lower housing with 115k onto a brand new aluminum pump. Jacking the thermostat from the brand new OEM pump I have doesn't make much sense either because I would be essentially paying for two different pumps to make one that may work.
3.) Install a replacement OEM pump and be done with it. Bingo...... We have a winner. This is what I chose. Here is why..... The early CBFA was not part of the waterpump recall. I checked my VIN several times and it has never qualified. Why that is I don't know but someone smarter than me knows why. I've also owned my GTI since 28k miles and as the second owner with just over 116k on it now, I can confidently say I've never had any leaking or issues with the pump. Also pretty sure it has never been replaced before I got it. I decided to replace the pump purely because I've neglected the cooling system and I've never got it flushed plus I'm planning a huge maintenance event where I'll be dropping the trans for a LSD install with new clutch packs and DMF. I also plan to do a K04 upgrade and a carbon clean all at the same time so it will be easy to replace. I seem to go down these rabbit holes of replacing parts when I get things torn apart. I did the timing chain tensioner update at 85k myself and wound up doing all tensioners, guides, chains, rails and even the latest revision of the camshaft bridge and a new PCV valve. I plan on keeping the car for another 3-5 years at least and bank some dough for an RS3. I hope this helps anyone in the same position

I think any plastic pump is a recall imo.
If you have any type of oil leak gasket swells and cracks pump. Granted if you take care of your car you won't have any oil leaks from valve cover.
I bought Graf pump from ECS and they shipped with incorrect thermostat.
They sent the correct one after an argument. I am ko4 and feel good about the pump fwiw

 

[BigFloppy]

I chatted to the crew at Alex's.. so some fake news from me (misunderstanding), they said they tried to code it out but couldn't get that right.

What they did to solve the CEL was this (super simple)
They left the sensor from the old CBFA water pump connected to the connector and hid it in the engine bay.

This way the heating circuit was completed and kept the vehicle happy with the new CCTA style aluminum water pump in place.

Here was the response I got from Ian (great guy) at Alex's when I confirmed what they did:

Sheldon,
Yes Correct. Sorry I shouldve explained that better. We tried to code it out and that's probably what you remember us talking about.
I even reached out to APR to see if they would allow me to force a later model (14' CBFA) Tune so it would code it out, but they wouldn't.
So we pulled it back apart, plugged the sensor in and secured it nicely and hid it.
View attachment 168542

All that sensor does essentially is help the thermostat open which is overly redundant and why they got rid of it after that first 2010 Production run(Early 2011 model) of the CBFA.
So It just needs to have that heating circuit in there to not throw the code, and you get a 10X more reliable water pump.
-Ian

Hey Necro,
Did a code ever come on for you? I installed the aluminum pump and with the heating circuit connected, but it eventually threw a code. Thinking I might have to buy and install the OEM pump. Hoping I might be missing something if your engine never came on.

I removed the heating circuit from the old pump, attached the connector and tucked it near the water pump. I even tried another one from another broken pump I had; light still comes on after 100 miles or so. Sucks because the car is due for smog too.

 

[Blindabinda123]

Do some cbfa not have the sensor? Deutsche said my car 2011 GTI cbfa doesn't have the second sensor

 

[Chisel_86]

My 2010 CBFA doesn't have the extra sensor.

 

[torga]

Do some cbfa not have the sensor? Deutsche said my car 2011 GTI cbfa doesn't have the second sensor

CBFA is a little confusing and not all of them have the sensor. Most do. Just get under the car and look for yourself before you potentially buy a water pump that doesn't fit. You should even be able to see it from the top, but you'll have to move a few things out of the way. It'll be easier looking from the bottom.

 

[Grabbit]

All CBFA motors have the extra sensor in the water pump -- build date doesn't matter. If the dealer VIN checked your car and they say it's a CBFA, then you've got the extra sensor. For sure.

CBFA is a little confusing and not all of them have the sensor. Most do. Just get under the car and look for yourself before you potentially buy a water pump that doesn't fit. You should even be able to see it from the top, but you'll have to move a few things out of the way. It'll be easier looking from the bottom.

I agree with the bottom one Torga. Might want to fix this for archive purposes.

 

[torga]

I agree with the bottom one Torga. Might want to fix this for archive purposes.

Thanks for the catch. We're all learning every day! Hopefully all of us, anyway.

 

[Grabbit]

Thanks for the catch. We're all learning every day! Hopefully all of us, anyway.

I gots you.

 

[Westro]

New to me and my son but I have a 2009 GTI with about 200K on the clock, 6 speed manual. Engine code says CBF 01xxxxx on the timing cover. Assume this is a CBFA. Water pump looks to be leaking, what pump are you putting on, is there an alternative the the OEM plastic one? Thanks for your response.

 

[Chisel_86]

New to me and my son but I have a 2009 GTI with about 200K on the clock, 6 speed manual. Engine code says CBF 01xxxxx on the timing cover. Assume this is a CBFA. Water pump looks to be leaking, what pump are you putting on, is there an alternative the the OEM plastic one? Thanks for your response.

Being an early CBFA you should be able to install the all aluminum version.
GRAF pump

 

[Grabbit]

New to me and my son but I have a 2009 GTI with about 200K on the clock, 6 speed manual. Engine code says CBF 01xxxxx on the timing cover. Assume this is a CBFA. Water pump looks to be leaking, what pump are you putting on, is there an alternative the the OEM plastic one? Thanks for your response.

You may want to check if your CBFA engine code has the extra sensor on the water pump. If it does than you are limited to plastic housing pumps. If you reference my post here a few years back I tried to make an Aluminum pump work on my 2010 GTI w CBFA engine code which does have the extra sensor but I couldnt get it to work. I ended up using an OEM VW plastic housing water pump with a metal impeller and its been running fine for some time.

Being an early CBFA you should be able to install the all aluminum version.
GRAF pump

I don't think this will work if the extra electrical sensor is present. I'm not aware of anyone that makes a aluminum housing pump for the CBFA coded cars that have the extra electrical sensor.