Southbend Clutches

[A_Bowers]

What I'm curious to know is why the PP side on the drop in disk is an organic material vs the flywheel side of sintered iron.


What kind of effect would a double sintered iron disk have?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[HSTuning]

What I'm curious to know is why the PP side on the drop in disk is an organic material vs the flywheel side of sintered iron.


What kind of effect would a double sintered iron disk have?

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

It's a compromise between

1) Thermal capacity
2) Smooth engagement
3) Torque capacity

Sintered on both sides would engage about as smooth as sitting in one of those paint mixing machines at home depot. And it would squeal every time you engaged it.

 

[SuPeR GTi]

as far as clutch failures, have you guys got many clutch failures on stage 1 apr software? or it it the stage 2's that you really see. whats your opinion on stock clutch with stg 1 and stock clutch with stg 2

 

[A_Bowers]

It's a compromise between

1) Thermal capacity
2) Smooth engagement
3) Torque capacity

Sintered on both sides would engage about as smooth as sitting in one of those paint mixing machines at home depot. And it would squeal every time you engaged it.

That's an awesome comparison.

Sent from my DROID RAZR HD

 

[VagPuncher]

Is this only for the daily kit? I have the stage 3 drag and wouldn't mind upgrading it especially if it makes it a little quieter and a lower pedal engaging point.

Edit: also what's the turn around time on it?

 

[HSTuning]

as far as clutch failures, have you guys got many clutch failures on stage 1 apr software? or it it the stage 2's that you really see. whats your opinion on stock clutch with stg 1 and stock clutch with stg 2

(This is Jeff replying)
I can't recall seeing a single failure on Stage 1. Stage 2 seems to be driver dependent. We've seen some have issues with Stage 2 cars, but I have had my MK6 Stage 2'd for almost 40,000 miles of pure abuse including road course duty and haven't seen an ounce of slip. Also worth pointing out that my wife learned how to drive stick shift on this car with the stock clutch.

I've been on some test drives with customers who leave their foot on the clutch pedal while driving, slip the clutch between each gear, rev the car to the moon before initial engagement. Stage 2 cars seem to be fine with out doing any of those things but drag racing or clutch slip launches are an absolute no-no with the stock unit.

Is this only for the daily kit? I have the stage 3 drag and wouldn't mind upgrading it especially if it makes it a little quieter and a lower pedal engaging point.

Edit: also what's the turn around time on it?

They are turning them around the same day they receive them, and shipping them for free back to you via UPS ground. If you need next day it's available but you'll have to pay for it.

I will get some clarity for you on the drag clutch, I'm honestly not sure as I've only talked with them about the daily and endurance versions.

 

[SuPeR GTi]

(This is Jeff replying)
I can't recall seeing a single failure on Stage 1. Stage 2 seems to be driver dependent. We've seen some have issues with Stage 2 cars, but I have had my MK6 Stage 2'd for almost 40,000 miles of pure abuse including road course duty and haven't seen an ounce of slip. Also worth pointing out that my wife learned how to drive stick shift on this car with the stock clutch.

I've been on some test drives with customers who leave their foot on the clutch pedal while driving, slip the clutch between each gear, rev the car to the moon before initial engagement. Stage 2 cars seem to be fine with out doing any of those things but drag racing or clutch slip launches are an absolute no-no with the stock unit.

makes sense. thanks for the great reply.

 

[lilfleck]

The friction material on that clutch might be good for 400 torque, but the factory pressure plate doesn't seem to hold APR K04 torque no matter the disc. We've taken out a lot of slipping clutches and the friction material is never glazed or heat damaged. The pressure plate friction face machine marks are always unscathed, leading us to the conclusion that the factory pressure plate has a point of give about 30-50 ft. lbs. lower than APR K04 torque. When we started installing K04's the stock clutches would ALMOST hold the power, then APR revised the software and the stock components didn't stand a chance. Southbend concedes that the factory pressure plate is the limitation on the drop-ins. They could use better friction material on those, but it wouldn't matter. My best guess? The 400 tq rating was a guess based on the friction material and prior knowledge of torque capacities.

We know that the GLI's seem to be holding K04 torque on the stock clutches in street application better than the GTI. Difference? Gearing. That leads us to believe that the stock pressure plate is very close to it's capacity limit. It's probably working for some, not for others being so close to max capacity. My best guess on an actual rating? 330-375. 330 with the stock disc, 375 with the drop in.

(This is Jeff replying)
I can't recall seeing a single failure on Stage 1. Stage 2 seems to be driver dependent. We've seen some have issues with Stage 2 cars, but I have had my MK6 Stage 2'd for almost 40,000 miles of pure abuse including road course duty and haven't seen an ounce of slip. Also worth pointing out that my wife learned how to drive stick shift on this car with the stock clutch.

I've been on some test drives with customers who leave their foot on the clutch pedal while driving, slip the clutch between each gear, rev the car to the moon before initial engagement. Stage 2 cars seem to be fine with out doing any of those things but drag racing or clutch slip launches are an absolute no-no with the stock unit.

Dave, this is all very interesting information. Honestly, one of the most informative threads I've read about the MK6 clutch. I know many on the boards are worried about clutch slippage after getting a tune (stage 2 more often than stage 1). A valid concern as a $6-700 tune can quickly turn into a $2-2,500+ job (assuming full clutch is done and including the tune). As such, many users have been looking at the Southbend Drop In--it provides a much more economical solution for those who want to enjoy stage 1 & 2.

I have read about many drivers complaining about their clutch slipping after going stage 2. Some even immediately after getting the tune. Obviously, this is car to car since there are also drivers w/o any issues (like yourself). I want to give the drivers who swear they don't abuse their car (out of the ordinary) and experience clutch slipping the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I just assume if I go stage 2, I'm going to slip sooner than later (I am the second owner of the car (@10k)).

I was eye balling the drop in, but after reading this and other threads, it seems as though due to the insufficient pressure plate, it will eventually give. Assuming that most drivers use this car as their daily driver/commuter and aren't on it at all times, which clutch package would you recommend for someone who is looking to maintain stage 2 power levels?

I want to be able to enjoy stage 2 powers as my daily driver but I don't want to deal w/ annoying chatter. Obviously, you have to give something up. I'm starting to think that due to the design of the MK6 manual transmission, it will be hard to find an OEM-like clutch that will support stage 2 power levels.

Are my expectations out of line?

 

[HSTuning]

Dave, this is all very interesting information. Honestly, one of the most informative threads I've read about the MK6 clutch. I know many on the boards are worried about clutch slippage after getting a tune (stage 2 more often than stage 1). A valid concern as a $6-700 tune can quickly turn into a $2-2,500+ job (assuming full clutch is done and including the tune). As such, many users have been looking at the Southbend Drop In--it provides a much more economical solution for those who want to enjoy stage 1 & 2.

I have read about many drivers complaining about their clutch slipping after going stage 2. Some even immediately after getting the tune. Obviously, this is car to car since there are also drivers w/o any issues (like yourself). I want to give the drivers who swear they don't abuse their car (out of the ordinary) and experience clutch slipping the benefit of the doubt. That being said, I just assume if I go stage 2, I'm going to slip sooner than later (I am the second owner of the car (@10k)).

I was eye balling the drop in, but after reading this and other threads, it seems as though due to the insufficient pressure plate, it will eventually give. Assuming that most drivers use this car as their daily driver/commuter and aren't on it at all times, which clutch package would you recommend for someone who is looking to maintain stage 2 power levels?

I want to be able to enjoy stage 2 powers as my daily driver but I don't want to deal w/ annoying chatter. Obviously, you have to give something up. I'm starting to think that due to the design of the MK6 manual transmission, it will be hard to find an OEM-like clutch that will support stage 2 power levels.

Are my expectations out of line?

If you never plan to go past Stage 2, leave the stock clutch in the car until it fails. If it fails use the new Stage 3 daily kit when it becomes available.

I don't think your expectations are out of line. I understand doing what you can to minimize the things you have to tolerate in order to have more power because GTI's aren't weekend only track cars. Thousands and thousands of people are taking clients to lunch or picking Mom and Dad up from the airport in these cars. No one likes having the "you wouldn't understand why my transmission chatters" conversation. The reality is that we (as a whole group) are all still in the early phases of modifying these cars and specific solutions don't exist for a perfect clutch yet. A lot of that has to do with transmission design, but a lot of it is due to the fact that the stock pressure plate is the only plate that can be used with the stock flywheel. I'm going to monitor the new Stage 3 Southbend kit as closely as I can for noise, I really think it might be the solution for low noise, holding anything from Stage 1 to Stage 3 power levels with nice engagement, and moderate pedal effort.

 

[Gabriel1]

I had been following threads like these but not that closely. That is until my stock clutch started slipping on my recently upgraded to K04 GLI. I understand that there is a certain newness and appeal to the Stage 3 (Exedy) daily clutch but I am curious as to your thoughts on the Stage 2 daily clutch. By the numbers, it appears that it will hold the power but is it worth the extra $400 and wait for the Exedy version? The money is an easy thing to get past but waiting until after the 1st of the year will be extremely difficult for me.

 

[NewToVW]

We didn't have the chance to measure the diameter of the disc, but Southbend told us the diameter is slightly greater and required opening up the lip on the flywheel very slightly

So using the newest disc with an older fw requires a trip to a machine shop to increase the diameter of the fw friction surface? This would also require re-balancing the fw.

 

[HSTuning]

I had been following threads like these but not that closely. That is until my stock clutch started slipping on my recently upgraded to K04 GLI. I understand that there is a certain newness and appeal to the Stage 3 (Exedy) daily clutch but I am curious as to your thoughts on the Stage 2 daily clutch. By the numbers, it appears that it will hold the power but is it worth the extra $400 and wait for the Exedy version? The money is an easy thing to get past but waiting until after the 1st of the year will be extremely difficult for me.

I like the current Stage 2 daily, it's just a little louder. If you have program switching, put the thing back into Stock Load Level program and wait until January 1, it's only 5 weeks.

So using the newest disc with an older fw requires a trip to a machine shop to increase the diameter of the fw friction surface? This would also require re-balancing the fw.

Nope, it requires sending the flywheel back to Southbend. They don't want the local machine shops working on your flywheel and they aren't charging for the machine work. If you already have Southbend components it makes the most sense to use their warranty/upgrade programs. Our flywheel didn't need to be opened up, but apparently some of them do.

 

[NewToVW]

Nope, it requires sending the flywheel back to Southbend. They don't want the local machine shops working on your flywheel and they aren't charging for the machine work.

Very good. That was my concern (local shops screwing up flywheels, creating a dangerous imbalance).

FWIW, I have a Stage 2 Daily Silent with my k04 and it's worked well so far. Good to know there will be other options if it dies in the future [/knockonwood].

 

[FLtrooper]

Dave,

Any updates on how the exedy unit is working?

Maybe I missed something, but will both the stage 2 and stage 3 units have the exedy disk? These will all be available starting the 1st?

I would like my k04 GLi to stay as streetable as possible. I have no plans to track this car anytime soon! I am leaning towards the stage 2.

Thanks!

:thumbsup:

 

[HSTuning]

Dave,

Any updates on how the exedy unit is working?

Maybe I missed something, but will both the stage 2 and stage 3 units have the exedy disk? These will all be available starting the 1st?

I would like my k04 GLi to stay as streetable as possible. I have no plans to track this car anytime soon! I am leaning towards the stage 2.

Thanks!

:thumbsup:

As far as we know it's holding up very well. The customer that we stay closest in contact with was traveling and had his car into the dealer for some warranty repairs so I'm not sure how many miles have been put on it recently. For clarity, only the Stage 3 discs will be Exedy and the new Stage 2 will be a Southbend unit. Also, remember that pedal effort doesn't increase until you get to Stage 3 Enudrance. The Stage 3 daily uses the Stage 2 pressure plate. We'll be making an announcement / press release for the new clutches tomorrow. They'll be available for pre-order tomorrow and should all be shipping sometime in the upcoming week.